WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:06.000 Tell us, you're a Charlie, two, five, four. 00:06.000 --> 00:11.800 Please save me from people who've been told what to like and then like it. 00:11.800 --> 00:16.160 In my opinion, if you're over six years of age and you're still getting your music 00:16.160 --> 00:20.760 from the radio, something is desperately wrong with you. 00:20.760 --> 00:27.440 I can only hope that somehow MP3 players and file sharing will destroy FM radio the way 00:27.440 --> 00:29.920 they're destroying record companies. 00:29.920 --> 00:34.720 And even though the air will probably never be safe to breathe again, maybe it will 00:34.720 --> 00:36.920 be safer to listen to it. 00:36.920 --> 00:39.920 I don't see rats. 00:39.920 --> 00:44.920 I'm sorry, information you don't get higher. 00:44.920 --> 00:47.920 I'm Korean. 00:47.920 --> 00:52.920 With $16 million worth of airplane strapped to my ass. 00:52.920 --> 00:55.920 In the next generation radio content in my ears. 00:55.920 --> 00:58.920 We don't need no sticking greens in. 00:58.920 --> 01:04.920 I like to think I'm flying into the future. 01:04.920 --> 01:05.920 And we've hit the hump by friends. 01:05.920 --> 01:11.920 Today is Wednesday, October 5, 2005. 01:11.920 --> 01:13.920 And good morning from Curry Cottage. 01:13.920 --> 01:16.920 It is just barely still morning five minutes before 12. 01:16.920 --> 01:20.920 I was up early, really excited when I woke up this morning. 01:20.920 --> 01:21.920 I just woke up. 01:21.920 --> 01:27.920 I had a whole bunch of ideas and things to talk about, about pot-safe music and music licensing. 01:27.920 --> 01:30.920 And I was really excited. 01:30.920 --> 01:35.920 I started going through the email and how much crap hit me, which we'll talk about, which 01:35.920 --> 01:39.920 maybe has to do with directories in the potter.org and podcastallie.com. 01:39.920 --> 01:41.920 So we will be talking about that. 01:41.920 --> 01:46.920 Then of course, I had something really important, which was go off to the hair salon. 01:47.920 --> 01:49.920 And of course, it's not Sam and Dave. 01:49.920 --> 01:50.920 We're a Tony and Guy. 01:50.920 --> 01:51.920 Whatever the hell those guys named it. 01:51.920 --> 01:52.920 No, I know God too. 01:52.920 --> 01:55.920 I go to Patricia's hairdresser and she goes with me. 01:55.920 --> 01:58.920 Since I have to take my glasses off and can't keep control over what's happening. 01:58.920 --> 02:00.920 You know, I am so lucky. 02:00.920 --> 02:05.920 I am blessed with what I have for 41 years and still a full head hair. 02:05.920 --> 02:06.920 Yeah! 02:09.920 --> 02:11.920 Oh, that enough is just to be happy about it, isn't it? 02:11.920 --> 02:13.920 We've got promos galore. 02:13.920 --> 02:15.920 All kinds of new promos, even from some shows 02:15.920 --> 02:16.920 that have been around a while. 02:16.920 --> 02:19.920 It's nice to see that got some new stuff coming. 02:19.920 --> 02:24.920 And actually, there's a lot coming in now, which is great because if we have a slow day, 02:24.920 --> 02:30.920 I'll know I have plenty of stuff, excuse me, to pull from from the archives. 02:30.920 --> 02:34.920 And it's all about getting exposure for more shows, right? 02:34.920 --> 02:35.920 Podsafe music. 02:35.920 --> 02:40.920 I think I've got probably a time to roll out two of those and some great feedback on this 02:40.920 --> 02:41.920 music licensing stuff. 02:41.920 --> 02:45.920 This is really just hitting me. 02:45.920 --> 02:50.920 I turned everything upside down on the world with a hell of a lot better when I did that. 02:50.920 --> 02:55.920 So we will get into that with a little bit of hiccups from the Mac, which we're still working on. 02:55.920 --> 03:01.920 First though, we have a mashup from mashuptown.com, ArtSent this one in. 03:01.920 --> 03:04.920 Romantic is the new fantastic. 03:04.920 --> 03:06.920 The groove blaster. 03:07.920 --> 03:10.920 This one's feel else to me. 03:10.920 --> 03:13.920 I'm so happy with it. 03:13.920 --> 03:18.920 But you can stay if you want to. 03:18.920 --> 03:21.920 Check it out now. 03:23.750 --> 04:06.920 [ Music ] 04:06.920 --> 04:24.920 I've been thinking about this in life. 04:24.920 --> 04:28.920 I might just stay here with you tonight. 04:36.920 --> 04:49.920 Check it out now. 04:53.750 --> 05:28.750 [ Music ] 05:30.920 --> 05:35.920 Ladies and gentlemen, this break is made out of respect for the TV fans, our audience. 05:35.920 --> 05:44.920 We're considering to constant interruptions in their programs for messages and sponsors. 05:44.920 --> 05:49.920 We want all you TV fans to see the whole and not forget the thrill you get. 05:49.920 --> 05:50.920 Come on. 05:50.920 --> 05:54.920 How does a girl like you get to be a girl like you? 05:54.920 --> 05:56.920 Black girls. 05:56.920 --> 05:59.920 Not like you're not wicked up to no good. 06:00.920 --> 06:02.920 Have a kill anyone? 06:02.920 --> 06:09.920 Because I bet you could tease a man to death without having to try. 06:09.920 --> 06:11.920 You told him to kiss me. 06:11.920 --> 06:13.920 Ladies, I know he was going to kiss you. 06:13.920 --> 06:15.920 I want to send a boy to do a man's job. 06:15.920 --> 06:16.920 Oh, that's for the man. 06:16.920 --> 06:18.920 You can tell him the job's filled. 06:18.920 --> 06:20.920 Check it out now. 06:21.250 --> 06:56.250 [ Music ] 06:56.920 --> 07:11.920 That's like that's nice. 07:12.920 --> 07:15.920 Welcome. 07:15.920 --> 07:19.920 This is the podshow podcast network. 07:19.920 --> 07:21.920 It's the Davy source code. 07:21.920 --> 07:25.920 After this, you'll get Mads Weinstein on a true attention tech. 07:25.920 --> 07:28.920 We've got pdubs, half hour friends. 07:28.920 --> 07:31.920 We've got podsake music all coming up in the next four or four hours. 07:31.920 --> 07:36.920 If you're checking this out on the podcast, well, you are truly wired. 07:36.920 --> 07:39.920 So, as I said, this morning I woke up. 07:39.920 --> 07:49.920 I was so enthusiastic about stuff that I'm still enthusiastic about about podsake music and podsake music network and music licensing. 07:49.920 --> 07:50.920 We're going to get to that. 07:50.920 --> 07:59.920 But first, I want you to know that for the past, I think two weeks now, we have been completely consumed at podshow. 07:59.920 --> 08:05.920 Part of it when I was still in San Francisco and part of it this week with listings in our directories. 08:05.920 --> 08:12.920 Now, just so you know, podshow owns and operates two domains, and I'm saying this very specifically domains. 08:12.920 --> 08:17.920 We have indiepodder.org, formerly known as iPodder.org. 08:17.920 --> 08:19.920 We have podcastalley.com. 08:19.920 --> 08:26.920 Two directories where you can pretty much submit your podcast and have it listed. 08:26.920 --> 08:33.920 Now, there's very distinct differences between these two domains and what they do and what their function is. 08:33.920 --> 08:36.920 Let me start with indiepodder.org first. 08:36.920 --> 08:43.920 This started as a community resource back in the early days before there was actually a word pod casting. 08:43.920 --> 08:47.920 And it's a brilliant system, brilliant. 08:47.920 --> 08:52.920 And I can easily say that because I'm just going to sit down for a second for this one. 08:52.920 --> 08:55.920 I love the stool, I still have here. 08:55.920 --> 09:02.920 The main reason it's brilliant is because it's architected as an open distributed directory based on OPML. 09:02.920 --> 09:07.920 Huge props to Dave Winner for his vision of how this works. 09:07.920 --> 09:10.920 And boy, I'd actually love to hear him weigh in on this. 09:10.920 --> 09:13.920 Although I think that he's going to agree with me. 09:13.920 --> 09:16.920 Wouldn't that be a great. 09:16.920 --> 09:25.920 The nature of a distributed directory means that indiepodder.org really is no more than one page if you. 09:25.920 --> 09:26.920 It's not a database. 09:26.920 --> 09:31.920 There's no database sitting behind that it's one page which is an HTML rendering of an OPML. 09:31.920 --> 09:36.920 That means that there's a bunch of links in that OPML file, which is just a format. 09:36.920 --> 09:40.920 So it's just a file, see it as a regular file with a bunch of links in it. 09:40.920 --> 09:49.920 And those links point to other OPML files hosted on other servers by other people, which are maintained by those people. 09:49.920 --> 09:56.920 Now what's beautiful about this is it's actually a very democratic system because although indiepodder.org, 09:56.920 --> 10:02.920 the main page there and the top level of directory may be seen as the all encompassing top level. 10:02.920 --> 10:09.920 It's actually quite cool because you could take the entire file we make that available for anyone. 10:09.920 --> 10:18.920 Apple did that and other companies and many other directories, of course, have pre-populated their directories with that data. 10:18.920 --> 10:21.920 And we make no claims about that. 10:21.920 --> 10:22.920 Go ahead and grab it. 10:22.920 --> 10:23.920 There's a link right there. 10:23.920 --> 10:25.920 We explain very clearly how it can be done. 10:25.920 --> 10:28.920 But just to reiterate. 10:28.920 --> 10:29.920 Sensei. 10:29.920 --> 10:37.920 Just to reiterate, there's no database, there's no storing of any links other than the links to these other directory nodes. 10:37.920 --> 10:41.920 Now what the system does do and this does add to some confusion. 10:41.920 --> 10:44.920 We're going to work on that is it renders. 10:44.920 --> 10:47.920 So if you say I want to look at the automotive category, you click on that link. 10:47.920 --> 10:53.920 What the system is actually doing is saying, okay, let me go pull in that OPML file from another server. 10:53.920 --> 10:58.920 And I'm going to render that through our rendering engine to turn it into an HTML representation, 10:58.920 --> 11:04.920 which is why you basically get just a bunch of links to RSS feeds, which is many of said is, you know, 11:04.920 --> 11:06.920 that's not the way to do a directory. 11:06.920 --> 11:11.920 Well, it in fact is the way to do a directory because it is a complete resource. 11:11.920 --> 11:13.920 It's just a resource. 11:13.920 --> 11:14.920 Do you hear that? 11:14.920 --> 11:15.920 That's my blackberry. 11:15.920 --> 11:21.920 That's the one thing I do not like about the blackberry is it provides a lot of interference on the equipment here. 11:21.920 --> 11:23.920 The MDA does not do that. 11:23.920 --> 11:29.920 So I have to kind of find the right spot so I can still read my show prep on it and not have that sound crappy. 11:29.920 --> 11:39.920 Anyway, so we are quite happy to point to anyone who wants, that's why you see it's kind of funny. 11:39.920 --> 11:43.920 People say, well, you've got way too many top level links there. 11:43.920 --> 11:48.920 When someone says they have a new category, we bought it in. 11:48.920 --> 11:51.920 Well, I'm happy to put anything in the top category. 11:51.920 --> 11:55.920 If there isn't a category that it already fits in, I'm happy to put it there. 11:55.920 --> 11:58.920 So for instance, we have a politics node right now. 11:58.920 --> 12:04.920 If someone decided they wanted to do an alternative politics node and was different from the one we already have, 12:04.920 --> 12:06.920 they would probably get a top level listing for me. 12:06.920 --> 12:11.920 But again, it's just a link to whatever they're linking to. 12:11.920 --> 12:13.920 So very much like a weblog. 12:13.920 --> 12:18.920 In fact, it's kind of the two different sides of the same coin in a way. 12:18.920 --> 12:22.920 Where I have a weblog and I can point to someone's website, 12:22.920 --> 12:25.920 but I'm not really responsible for everything they link to. 12:25.920 --> 12:27.920 And nor do I have the time to go and read everything. 12:27.920 --> 12:31.920 You would presume that if God damn that really pisses me off. 12:31.920 --> 12:32.920 There we go. 12:32.920 --> 12:36.920 You would presume that no one has time to go and read through everything. 12:36.920 --> 12:41.920 Maybe I would disagree and I could perhaps remove a link. 12:41.920 --> 12:46.920 But the whole kind of idea of the links on the web is that a link is in place and you hope it stays. 12:46.920 --> 12:49.920 And we don't want a link rot and we want it to kind of be in place. 12:49.920 --> 12:53.920 So it's very, very critical to understand. 12:53.920 --> 12:57.920 Crucial really that any potter.org is nothing. 12:57.920 --> 12:58.920 There's no not a database. 12:58.920 --> 13:02.920 It is just a list of links to other lists of links. 13:02.920 --> 13:05.920 That is the nature of the open directory. 13:05.920 --> 13:08.920 By the way, anyone maintaining a node can also. 13:09.920 --> 13:11.920 And that's not only can they. 13:11.920 --> 13:14.920 I hope they do and many do such as the music category. 13:14.920 --> 13:17.920 There's one music maintainer of the category. 13:17.920 --> 13:24.920 And that person has linked in other opium nodes to what I call sub directory. 13:24.920 --> 13:29.920 So there's someone is maintaining under the music category. 13:29.920 --> 13:32.920 Different like the rock music category. 13:32.920 --> 13:34.920 And that's actually that can be someone else. 13:34.920 --> 13:36.920 And it all kind of flows together. 13:36.920 --> 13:37.920 And it's a different system. 13:37.920 --> 13:45.920 It is, in my opinion, the only way an open directory can work because in this case we have over a hundred volunteers. 13:45.920 --> 13:52.920 All of them, you know, so passionate about what they do that they often even hand code these opium 13:52.920 --> 13:56.920 files in like note pad, you know, just to just to get it up and running. 13:56.920 --> 13:59.920 And of course, that also means that we sometimes have breakage, you know, from day to day. 13:59.920 --> 14:03.920 You'll see that maybe a node will drop out because someone's web server one away. 14:03.920 --> 14:07.920 And we usually wait and see if it comes back. 14:07.920 --> 14:12.920 And from time to time, someone will say, hey, this node hasn't been maintained for six months. 14:12.920 --> 14:13.920 I'd like to take over the node. 14:13.920 --> 14:14.920 I think they can do a better job. 14:14.920 --> 14:18.920 Then I'll have an email conversation with the original maintainer of the node. 14:18.920 --> 14:20.920 Most of the times the maintainer of the nodes says, oh, shit. 14:20.920 --> 14:23.920 I didn't even know that, you know, I've been updating somewhere else. 14:23.920 --> 14:27.920 And I screwed up and they fixed it and everything kind of seems to cope with Saturday. 14:27.920 --> 14:31.920 Because the people who usually want to maintain a node are the ones who haven't been able to get listed. 14:31.920 --> 14:38.920 By the way, to get listed in a node on indie potter, you communicate directly with through an email or submission link. 14:38.920 --> 14:41.920 Actually, you communicate directly with that node manager. 14:41.920 --> 14:50.920 So the way the only way that works is that the node managers are responsible for what they link to. 14:50.920 --> 14:54.920 Okay, that said, let's look at podcastiley.com. 14:54.920 --> 14:57.920 The name itself says what it is. 14:57.920 --> 14:59.920 It's the alley behind podcasting. 14:59.920 --> 15:01.920 It's kind of the back end. 15:01.920 --> 15:08.920 It's where we figure where we built, where I didn't, where Chris McIntyre built a community around podcasters. 15:08.920 --> 15:13.920 And the community focus on a number of different things. 15:13.920 --> 15:20.920 You know, primarily how to create shows, make shows, produce shows, create feeds. 15:20.920 --> 15:29.920 I mean, there's a lot of stuff that really the community has created in that space at podcastiley.com. 15:29.920 --> 15:35.920 Now, podcastiley.com does have a database and it has an automatic submission. 15:35.920 --> 15:39.920 So you send it into one place and it basically just all goes in. 15:39.920 --> 15:43.920 It's verified to see if your feed is valid and that's about it. 15:43.920 --> 15:49.920 So what is the issue at hand? 15:49.920 --> 16:02.920 The issue at hand is that a couple of podcasts have popped up into these directories in the past couple of weeks that the majority of people find offensive. 16:02.920 --> 16:12.920 One is a hate podcast and one is a podcast apparently about Peter Felia. 16:12.920 --> 16:21.920 And these both of these podcasts were listed in both directories in indie potter.org. 16:21.920 --> 16:25.920 It was listed in a node maintained by a separate node manager. 16:25.920 --> 16:30.920 And I can't speak for the new issue that is popped up because I haven't been able to find it in any of the nodes yet. 16:30.920 --> 16:33.920 Nor is anyone pointed out to me. 16:33.920 --> 16:38.920 It did, by the way, pop up automatically on the homepage of indie potter.org. 16:38.920 --> 16:41.920 Both of these podcasts were submitted to podcastiley. 16:41.920 --> 16:44.920 Now, as you can understand, again, it's an automatic submission. 16:44.920 --> 16:51.920 There's sometimes there's a hundred to six or seven hundred new podcasts coming out in a day or in a span of a couple days. 16:51.920 --> 16:59.920 And there is no human intervention there, which I think places a much bigger responsibility on the community. 16:59.920 --> 17:05.920 And primarily the people who run podcastiley.com, which is Podshow. 17:05.920 --> 17:15.920 And Chris McIntyre as the spiritual leader of that community and of that website. 17:15.920 --> 17:30.920 So the question that has a risen is, should every single podcast be listed in these directories regardless of what the content of the podcast is? 17:30.920 --> 17:40.920 This is not the official Podshow statement, but I was so emotional about the conversations that have been going on on podcastiley. 17:40.920 --> 17:45.920 Because it's become very, actually hateful and very aggressive. 17:45.920 --> 17:53.920 The way people are attacking Chris, myself, Podshow, other members of the community about this issue. 17:53.920 --> 17:58.920 I think the conversation is just no longer a grown-up conversation. 17:58.920 --> 18:08.920 Let me state right up front that our organization, which is its own little community, a very young and growing community, because we're all just kind of getting to know each other. 18:08.920 --> 18:14.920 We've only been, you know, a company for, for really a few weeks and, you know, new people coming on every single day. 18:14.920 --> 18:17.920 We are very diverse group. 18:17.920 --> 18:38.920 And I think it intuitively, you can probably figure out that not a single person in our organization would endorse any type of hate or any, any crime or violence or anything that would potentially hurt children. 18:38.920 --> 18:40.920 I mean, that's obvious. 18:40.920 --> 18:46.920 This is not, I repeat, this is not a free speech issue. I really thought about this. 18:46.920 --> 18:51.920 Free speech means the right for someone to say whatever they want to say. 18:51.920 --> 18:59.920 That doesn't necessarily mean that we have to promote that or link to it or highlight it or list it. 18:59.920 --> 19:01.920 I'll take it one step further. 19:01.920 --> 19:12.920 Since the podcast Ali.com community is owned and operated by all of us, not just Adam Curry and Ron Bloom or Chris McIntyre, but, you know, it's pod show. 19:12.920 --> 19:19.920 And it's, and that takes significant resources. It takes people and takes money and, you know, there's, there's a, a lot that goes into it. 19:19.920 --> 19:28.920 Chris actually said it very, very, very suit yesterday. He feels that anything on podcast Ali.com basically reflects what we are as people and I totally agree. 19:28.920 --> 19:36.920 Because we do maintain the database. We do maintain what is being linked to, we do maintain the listings. 19:36.920 --> 19:43.920 Indiepoter.org, that homepage, that, that, that top level listing, that reflects who we are as people. 19:43.920 --> 19:48.920 The linking, and this is really, really, really important that you understand this. 19:48.920 --> 19:55.920 The linking to other OPML files, which, in fact, are a little mini directories. 19:55.920 --> 20:00.920 We cannot be responsible for what other people put in their OPML files. 20:00.920 --> 20:05.920 We can't tell a node manager to put something in or take something out. 20:05.920 --> 20:10.920 So, and again, we're going to write this down and come out with an official statement. 20:10.920 --> 20:24.920 And, you know, words are always turned around and I'm not always the best communicator, particularly not when I'm emotional, but I want you to know that the only way to solve this is to put our foot down and say that we have the right. 20:24.920 --> 20:32.920 We reserve the right to not list a podcast if we feel we don't have to or want to. 20:32.920 --> 20:35.920 See, that already didn't come out the way I wanted to sound. 20:35.920 --> 20:45.920 But we reserve the right to not list anything on podcastally.com and on the homepage, the top level of the indiepoter.org directory. 20:45.920 --> 20:52.920 In fact, the, one of the offensive podcasts through automatic script showed up on the homepage of indiepoter.org. 20:52.920 --> 21:04.920 And I removed it because that is my space. That is the space that I control and that is owned by pod show and the community of people who do not want anything poorly to reflect upon us. 21:04.920 --> 21:10.920 Anything else in indiepoter.org should be taken up with the maintainer of that node. 21:10.920 --> 21:15.920 And by the way, we, of course, do reserve the right to drop a node or place it with something else. 21:15.920 --> 21:21.920 But that's where we have to be really, really careful, my friends. 21:21.920 --> 21:29.920 The way we're going to release our policy, if you will, will be exactly that. 21:29.920 --> 21:38.920 If you have an issue with a link on an independently hosted and maintained node, you'll have to take it up with that node manager. 21:38.920 --> 21:47.920 We are only linking to nodes. If nodes are properly maintained, that's all we care about, that the links work. 21:47.920 --> 21:56.920 And that they're updated fresh and that they're, you know, that they're maintained basically and people can get their stuff listed in it. 21:56.920 --> 22:05.920 So I think you will see that the offensive quote unquote offensive podcasts will be removed from podcast alley. 22:05.920 --> 22:11.920 At the same time, we will also, I think, be looking at members of the community who are offensive. 22:11.920 --> 22:18.920 And we might have to remove them because if this has this discussion or what people are trying to call discussion, 22:18.920 --> 22:22.920 podcast alley.com is not the place for it. 22:22.920 --> 22:30.920 Because we're trying to create a positive community that works towards podcasting, creating better podcast. 22:30.920 --> 22:35.920 We don't, I don't think it's the right forum for a huge free speech discussion because it's inappropriate. 22:35.920 --> 22:41.920 Free speech would mean that we tell these podcasters that they can't do a podcast. 22:41.920 --> 22:50.920 Okay? So be very, very, I want to be as clear as possible about the distinction that anything we own, 22:50.920 --> 22:54.920 we reserve the right to remove things and we will. 22:54.920 --> 23:00.920 And I think the reasons will be clear, but we don't have to even give a reason if we don't want to. 23:01.920 --> 23:09.920 What I'm so emotional about, though, is the tactics that have been played out in this without even any consideration for time, 23:09.920 --> 23:14.920 for thought, for the resources, for the consequences that go into this. 23:14.920 --> 23:25.920 And people are blackmailing us, people are sending emails with half truths and sometimes lies to mainstream media to try and quote, 23:25.920 --> 23:29.920 quote, stir the shit up or call us out. 23:29.920 --> 23:35.920 You know, it's a completely wrong way to go about it. It is so incredibly disappointing. 23:35.920 --> 23:39.920 Anyway, how, what time are we now? 23:39.920 --> 23:42.920 God damn, never gonna make this show. 23:42.920 --> 23:48.920 So today at the California hasn't broken up yet, it'll be a few more hours yet. 23:48.920 --> 23:53.920 We're going to publish our policies. You'll see that they'll look very much like Google. 23:53.920 --> 23:57.920 And by the way, you know, threats were made to our investors. 23:57.920 --> 24:03.920 They're very aware have dealt with this before have been giving us some excellent advice on the topic. 24:03.920 --> 24:06.920 And we're trying to be as mature as possible about this. 24:06.920 --> 24:18.920 So we can move on and get on with creating great podcasts, better podcasting and a thriving community that does not yell, shout, and threaten each other. 24:18.920 --> 24:30.920 Okay, now for some fun stuff. 24:30.920 --> 24:35.920 Hi, this is Apocalypse Dahl. I'd like to tell you about my podcast novel, Brace for Impact. 24:35.920 --> 24:38.920 This novel follows the story of Apocalypse Dahl. 24:38.920 --> 24:41.920 Hey, that's me. And Mick Aloha, my arch enemy. 24:41.920 --> 24:45.920 As we join forces to journey across the country for a common cause. 24:45.920 --> 24:53.920 Along the way, win counter truckers, pro wrestlers, robots, ghosts, sex craved middle-aged Japanese women. 24:53.920 --> 24:58.920 In saying farmers, a plot to destroy the internet and midget cowboys. 24:58.920 --> 25:04.920 New episodes come out every Tuesday. You can check out the website at www.freepodcastnomel.com 25:04.920 --> 25:09.920 or do a search for brace for impact in the directories. Thanks a lot. 25:10.920 --> 25:16.920 Hot show. Content that will make you squeeze the dog and burp your mother. 25:16.920 --> 25:18.920 Want to hear something different? 25:18.920 --> 25:21.920 Want to hear how South Africans are doing it? 25:21.920 --> 25:22.920 Well, I'm Glenn. 25:22.920 --> 25:25.920 And I'm Bridget. 25:25.920 --> 25:27.920 A Zedershow. 25:27.920 --> 25:30.920 Come and experience Cape Town, South Africa. 25:30.920 --> 25:32.920 We talk about anything. 25:33.920 --> 25:37.920 But not for cons. It's such an expressive language. 25:37.920 --> 25:39.920 But in Africa, you can't just say four. 25:39.920 --> 25:41.920 Oh, close. Come on, South Africa. 25:41.920 --> 25:43.920 And we talk to interesting people. 25:43.920 --> 25:48.920 Going to break the landscape record for the fastest blind driver. 25:48.920 --> 25:52.920 All I'm going to find is close to possible in the end of the moment now. 25:52.920 --> 25:55.920 So come and join the Zee Cape Townian. 25:55.920 --> 26:01.920 To subscribe, search for the Zedershow and iTunes or go to www.TheZedershow.Zedet.net. 26:02.920 --> 26:09.920 And podcasting all's live and I'm curry. 26:09.920 --> 26:12.920 My pod.com. 26:12.920 --> 26:17.920 And James. 26:17.920 --> 26:21.920 Yes, we have a big interview on Friday show at madpot.com. 26:21.920 --> 26:22.920 Barry Manolo. 26:22.920 --> 26:25.920 That's right. Barry Manolo and madpot. 26:25.920 --> 26:28.920 And I floated down, made it into a ballad. 26:28.920 --> 26:30.920 That's what he was hearing. 26:30.920 --> 26:35.320 Hearing me doing it is a ballad and it was the first number one song for me and for Arespa. 26:40.120 --> 26:41.160 Oh, my singing mandi. 26:41.160 --> 26:42.120 Mabpa. 26:42.120 --> 26:43.120 Doc Call. 26:43.120 --> 26:44.120 Sing mandi. 26:44.120 --> 26:45.120 There you go. 26:45.520 --> 26:46.720 The ultimate mannel L. 26:46.720 --> 26:49.120 And an extremely rare interview. 26:49.120 --> 26:51.520 This is only one of six and ten years. 26:51.520 --> 26:52.120 Mannel L. 26:52.120 --> 26:53.720 Speaks with Shadow Steel. 26:53.720 --> 26:57.320 Regarding his hits, entertainment career and personal life. 26:57.320 --> 26:58.440 Mabpa. 26:58.440 --> 26:59.320 Doc Call. 26:59.320 --> 27:00.320 Hi. 27:00.320 --> 27:04.320 This is Shadow Steel and you're listening to your global audio connection, madpod.com. 27:04.320 --> 27:06.320 Doc Call. 27:06.320 --> 27:07.320 Yeah. 27:07.320 --> 27:09.320 Shadow Steel or whatever. 27:09.320 --> 27:10.320 Baga. 27:10.320 --> 27:12.320 That's a district or trucker name. 27:12.320 --> 27:15.320 I think there are 25 Shadow Steel's running around the country right now. 27:15.320 --> 27:16.320 But it sounds interesting. 27:16.320 --> 27:17.320 I definitely want to hear the Barry. 27:17.320 --> 27:20.320 I like Barry Manelow's stuff. 27:20.320 --> 27:24.320 Let me think what I'm going to do now because I don't think I'm going to happen. 27:24.320 --> 27:28.320 I mean, I'm going to remove the track I was going to play here. 27:28.320 --> 27:32.320 I'll play that tomorrow so we can get into the music licensing conversation. 27:32.320 --> 27:33.320 Okay. 27:33.320 --> 27:36.320 Where to start? 27:36.320 --> 27:43.320 I think the easiest and most logical place to start is to talk about, oh actually. 27:43.320 --> 27:44.320 Yeah. 27:44.320 --> 27:48.320 It's to talk about what music licensing is, how it came about. 27:48.320 --> 27:51.320 And I'm a semi-professional in this area. 27:51.320 --> 27:52.320 I'm certainly not a lawyer. 27:52.320 --> 27:54.320 Certainly not a music lawyer. 27:54.320 --> 27:57.320 But I have dealt with the material long enough to get the conversation. 27:57.320 --> 28:00.320 Going a little bit more. 28:00.320 --> 28:07.320 And this is purely about podcasting and radio and streaming and the digital Millennium Copyright Act. 28:07.320 --> 28:20.320 So historically radio stations have been able to play records on the radio at no cost other than a contribution to Ask Cap BMI. 28:20.320 --> 28:24.320 And if you're in a different country like the Netherlands, it's Buma Stemera. 28:24.320 --> 28:29.320 If you're in England, it's the PMRS, I think it is. 28:29.320 --> 28:33.320 These are all territorial based organizations. 28:33.320 --> 28:35.320 And a little fuzzy on this. 28:35.320 --> 28:43.320 But I believe they have acquired the right from the government to be the collection agency for authors, composers. 28:43.320 --> 28:48.320 And there are actually two separate organizations that I think are in some places. 28:48.320 --> 28:53.320 Well, there are separate organizations that actually got and collect money for the producer. 28:53.320 --> 29:00.320 Of a song as well as for the vocalist of a song. 29:00.320 --> 29:01.320 Believe it or not. 29:01.320 --> 29:03.320 I know this because Patricia gets them. 29:03.320 --> 29:05.320 It's called the Sainat in Europe. 29:05.320 --> 29:09.320 And they actually got and get money for the for the vocalist, even if they haven't written the song. 29:09.320 --> 29:14.320 So the concept behind this is that the record companies who own the actual product. 29:14.320 --> 29:15.320 Okay. 29:15.320 --> 29:20.320 So the product of a song, which is it's the disc that it comes on. 29:20.320 --> 29:23.320 It's the complete, it we call it the master. 29:23.320 --> 29:29.320 You know, basically in 99.9 cases when you have a record deal. 29:29.320 --> 29:31.320 The record company owns the master. 29:31.320 --> 29:36.320 That means they own whatever happens with that physical product and how it is used. 29:36.320 --> 29:40.320 Traditionally, radio's record companies have waived any fee. 29:40.320 --> 29:42.320 I've said, go ahead radio stations. 29:42.320 --> 29:49.320 You can use this because it promotes our product and it helps us in our entire marketing campaign to sell the physical product. 29:49.320 --> 29:53.320 So that's a great hand off and an up until streaming, which I get to in a second. 29:53.320 --> 29:57.320 That was a very cut and, you know, very cut and straight cut deal. 29:57.320 --> 29:59.320 Everyone understood it. 29:59.320 --> 30:05.320 Now, of course, radio stations who play music and music is not just, you know, the number one hit of the week, 30:05.320 --> 30:12.320 but it can also be a filler that you use or some background music during an interview or all any type of music. 30:12.320 --> 30:22.320 Just as with clubs, restaurants, bars, elevators, concerts, anywhere that the music is performed. 30:22.320 --> 30:23.320 Okay. 30:23.320 --> 30:25.320 And by performance, I also mean broadcast. 30:25.320 --> 30:29.320 So it is, it's not that you're just putting a record on and playing it for your friends. 30:29.320 --> 30:31.320 And there's, there's actually some legal language about that. 30:31.320 --> 30:33.320 What constitutes the real performance. 30:33.320 --> 30:39.320 In fact, you've probably seen that there's all kinds of disclaimers that if you buy a direct TV, 30:39.320 --> 30:43.320 satellite dish and you have all your buddies come over and you, if you were to charge money at the door, 30:43.320 --> 30:48.320 if you just let anyone in and a hundred people watching the game, you could get a knock at the door, 30:48.320 --> 30:51.320 and they could start charging you money for that. 30:51.320 --> 30:52.320 But think about it. 30:52.320 --> 30:57.320 You know, if you're in a commercial venture, such as Radio Station, you're using this art, 30:57.320 --> 31:01.320 which, of course, the record companies aren't getting compensated for directly, 31:01.320 --> 31:07.320 but the people who created the song, they need to be compensated. 31:07.320 --> 31:12.320 They're partially compensated through sales, and there's a whole division key of that, 31:12.320 --> 31:16.320 who gets what, and that all depends on, you know, the publishing rights, 31:16.320 --> 31:21.320 and, you know, that's probably a little bit too complicated to go into in depth here. 31:21.320 --> 31:25.320 But that's why there are these organizations, and they've been around for a long time, 31:25.320 --> 31:29.320 like BMI and like ASCAP and PMRS and Bumush Damara. 31:29.320 --> 31:36.320 And their job is to cut deals with all of these places where the music is used in a commercial, 31:36.320 --> 31:38.320 and a commercial venture. 31:38.320 --> 31:43.320 So a radio station will typically pay a percentage of revenue, 31:43.320 --> 31:47.320 I think it's, they based it on audience size and revenue, 31:47.320 --> 31:49.320 but it's all negotiation is what it is. 31:49.320 --> 31:54.320 In fact, we did a trade show recently, that recently, when I was still back in, 31:54.320 --> 31:59.320 at the Curry Castle, for Grandmaster View screens, we did a trade show, 31:59.320 --> 32:04.320 and a guy from the local ASCAP BMI authorities came by and said, 32:04.320 --> 32:07.320 hey, you're playing music here, do you have a license? 32:07.320 --> 32:08.320 And we said, no, we don't. 32:08.320 --> 32:12.320 We thought that was included with the stand and, you know, with our booth. 32:12.320 --> 32:15.320 No, sorry, you got to pay, and you have to pay right now, 32:15.320 --> 32:17.320 or we'll send you, we'll find you. 32:17.320 --> 32:22.320 And it wasn't much, you know, they based upon the size of the booth, 32:22.320 --> 32:24.320 and with the traffic that was going by the booth, you know, 32:24.320 --> 32:29.320 it's all kind of fuzzy logic and math, but it's, you know, it's fair. 32:29.320 --> 32:32.320 We're using music to attract people into buy our products. 32:32.320 --> 32:36.320 I mean, maybe we'll pay like 50 bucks or something per day, 32:36.320 --> 32:38.320 for the week that we were there. 32:38.320 --> 32:40.320 So, you know, it's, it's, it's fair. 32:40.320 --> 32:42.320 It just makes sense. 32:42.320 --> 32:50.320 So, taking into consideration that history will repeat itself, 32:50.320 --> 32:55.320 I think we need to do something similar for the pod safe music scene, 32:55.320 --> 32:58.320 and particularly through the pod safe music network. 32:58.320 --> 33:04.320 Because often, even though often the, 33:04.320 --> 33:08.320 the creator of the song of the product that you can either buy, 33:08.320 --> 33:12.320 yeah, a protract download, or that you can buy as a physical CD, 33:12.320 --> 33:17.320 even though they may also be the songwriter and composer at the end of the day, 33:17.320 --> 33:20.320 when someone is making money, and I've already heard this conversation crop up, 33:20.320 --> 33:23.320 you know, if I'm making money through doing the daily source code, 33:23.320 --> 33:25.320 which I'm not making directly yet, but we will eventually, 33:25.320 --> 33:28.320 there's going to be some kind of sponsorships and advertising, 33:28.320 --> 33:31.320 or so there's going to be some monetization. 33:31.320 --> 33:36.320 And if I'm using music to do that, then the people who created that music 33:36.320 --> 33:40.320 should be fairly compensated, and the people who are selling the product of that music 33:40.320 --> 33:43.320 will be compensated if it's good enough, and it catches on, 33:43.320 --> 33:46.320 and people go and buy the product. 33:46.320 --> 33:51.320 So, I do believe that we have to come up with something for the pod safe music 33:51.320 --> 33:59.320 authors, composers, producers, and let's just say performers, okay? 33:59.320 --> 34:04.320 And that's a huge job to set that up, but it's really going to be worth it. 34:04.320 --> 34:07.320 Let me just tell you how they fixed that with streaming, 34:07.320 --> 34:10.320 because when streaming came out in the late 90s, 34:10.320 --> 34:15.320 radio stations, essentially radio stations in the beginning, 34:15.320 --> 34:18.320 were a simultaneous feeding of their radio station, 34:18.320 --> 34:20.320 so you could pick it up anywhere in the world. 34:20.320 --> 34:26.320 Of course, you were tied to your computer, so it didn't have all the benefits of pod casting. 34:26.320 --> 34:31.320 But this also adheres to the satellite radio, 34:31.320 --> 34:36.320 that all falls under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. 34:36.320 --> 34:39.320 And if you read this act outside of the, you know, 34:39.320 --> 34:42.320 all the stuff about cracking encryption, et cetera, 34:42.320 --> 34:45.320 it was a freaking negotiation. 34:45.320 --> 34:48.320 And it literally says things like, 34:48.320 --> 34:53.320 you can't play a song by the same artist back to back, 34:53.320 --> 34:56.320 because, of course, they're afraid that you'll eventually, you know, 34:56.320 --> 34:59.320 that you could play all 12 of a CDs tracks, 34:59.320 --> 35:02.320 and someone could record that, and then they would effectively have the CD. 35:02.320 --> 35:05.320 It was really a negotiation with people, 35:05.320 --> 35:07.320 with big radio stations who were into streaming, 35:07.320 --> 35:14.320 as well as the then still infant and not even open for business satellite radio operators. 35:15.320 --> 35:19.320 So none of this really applies to pod casting 35:19.320 --> 35:21.320 when it comes to the traditional system, 35:21.320 --> 35:25.320 which means licensed music, which belongs to the RIA, 35:25.320 --> 35:27.320 and of course, the songs themselves, 35:27.320 --> 35:31.320 which belong to the authors, composers, producers, 35:31.320 --> 35:34.320 and performers on the track. 35:34.320 --> 35:41.320 So that's the problem with playing songs that aren't pod safe in your podcast. 35:41.320 --> 35:46.320 The problem is that there is a collection agency, 35:46.320 --> 35:49.320 and their mission in life is to go out and collect money 35:49.320 --> 35:53.320 if you're using the works, 35:53.320 --> 35:57.320 not the physical product, but the works of these artists. 35:57.320 --> 36:04.320 Again, the composer, the writer, the producer, and the performers. 36:04.320 --> 36:07.320 If you're using those works in a commercial venture, 36:07.320 --> 36:09.320 and of course, what's commercial is very fuzzy, 36:09.320 --> 36:12.320 but at the end of the day, if you're making money using that product, 36:12.320 --> 36:14.320 they'll come and collect. 36:14.320 --> 36:19.320 So that's why you see ASCAD BMI coming out with licenses for podcasters. 36:19.320 --> 36:22.320 Because they're saying, hey, this is very clearly defined. 36:22.320 --> 36:25.320 If you have permission to use the master to use the product, 36:25.320 --> 36:29.320 then all we want is we want to fairly compensate these other guys over here. 36:29.320 --> 36:31.320 Totally agree with it. 36:31.320 --> 36:34.320 Of course, the way they've set that up, 36:34.320 --> 36:39.320 the size of the fee, the reporting you have to do, 36:39.320 --> 36:44.320 is nowhere near possible for any podcast. 36:44.320 --> 36:46.320 I can't even do my own frickin' show notes myself. 36:46.320 --> 36:50.320 Let alone do all the work on figuring out. 36:50.320 --> 36:54.320 And we used to do this at the big radio stations before it was all automated. 36:54.320 --> 36:59.320 You have to write down, title the song, the artist, the label it's on, 36:59.320 --> 37:02.320 and then on the record is always stated who's the composer, 37:02.320 --> 37:06.320 and who is the author, producer, 37:06.320 --> 37:09.320 and performers don't apply, 37:09.320 --> 37:15.320 and those rights start to be collected much later on. 37:15.320 --> 37:20.320 So while we could really focus on getting a license with ASCAD BMI, 37:20.320 --> 37:23.320 which is kind of what I was talking about the other day, 37:23.320 --> 37:27.320 I think maybe we should turn the tables and turn it around. 37:27.320 --> 37:31.320 And before I get to that, I want to play for you, 37:31.320 --> 37:34.320 kind of a, it's a promo, but it's kind of a joke, 37:34.320 --> 37:38.320 because, and by the way, it's completely not safe for children's ears. 37:38.320 --> 37:43.320 These guys totally understand the vibe of the record companies, 37:43.320 --> 37:47.320 the RIA, because they would probably sound a lot like this 37:47.320 --> 37:51.320 if they were trying to deal with us podcasters. 37:51.320 --> 37:56.320 We've been checking out this pod safe music network a year. 37:56.320 --> 37:59.320 We like what we see. You know what I mean? 37:59.320 --> 38:01.320 Look, we've got a deal for it. 38:01.320 --> 38:05.320 I think it's going to work out pretty good for all of us. 38:05.320 --> 38:07.320 We really see it, baby. 38:07.320 --> 38:08.320 What the fuck? 38:08.320 --> 38:10.320 Who else is fucking Frenchy in here? 38:10.320 --> 38:11.320 I don't know. 38:11.320 --> 38:12.320 What the fuck? 38:12.320 --> 38:14.320 Joey, take care of the fucking Frenchy for me, would you? 38:14.320 --> 38:15.320 I got it. 38:15.320 --> 38:16.320 Forget about it. 38:18.320 --> 38:22.320 Where the fuck was I before that French fuck in a ruptuous? 38:22.320 --> 38:26.320 Look, we don't let just anyone into the family. 38:26.320 --> 38:29.320 I think it's about time we make an exception. 38:29.320 --> 38:31.320 See, it's a thing. 38:31.320 --> 38:33.320 We got ourselves a business back into Troy. 38:33.320 --> 38:36.320 Go ahead, boat and sing music studios. 38:36.320 --> 38:39.320 Yeah, yeah. We pretty much run the whole town down there. 38:39.320 --> 38:41.320 Joey, shut the fuck up. 38:41.320 --> 38:44.320 Look, we got some talented people recording there. 38:44.320 --> 38:47.320 We like to see if we can make a deal with you. 38:47.320 --> 38:49.320 Go ahead. 38:49.320 --> 38:51.320 You can take a head of that. 38:51.320 --> 38:55.320 Look, we'll get you some good music for your pod safe music network. 38:55.320 --> 38:59.320 And in return, you just tell them where you got it. 38:59.320 --> 39:01.320 It's as simple as that. 39:01.320 --> 39:03.320 What do you think? 39:03.320 --> 39:06.320 Well, first of all, we got the really good shit. 39:06.320 --> 39:10.320 I mean, all this music, top notch. 39:10.320 --> 39:13.320 And second of all, it's a really good fun. 39:13.320 --> 39:14.320 You know what I mean? 39:14.320 --> 39:16.320 The shit rocks. 39:16.320 --> 39:17.320 Forget about it. 39:17.320 --> 39:19.320 Joey, shut the fuck up. 39:19.320 --> 39:21.320 So, what do you think, Adam? 39:21.320 --> 39:23.320 We got ourselves a deal. 39:26.320 --> 39:27.320 Oh, man. 39:27.320 --> 39:29.320 Piece of crap. 39:29.320 --> 39:31.320 I think that was the end of it. 39:31.320 --> 39:33.320 So you kind of get the gist there, right? 39:33.320 --> 39:36.320 So he was my thought. 39:36.320 --> 39:40.320 And by the way, I clearly like to play mashups, 39:40.320 --> 39:42.320 and that's an issue. 39:42.320 --> 39:44.320 And I'd like to pay for that. 39:44.320 --> 39:49.320 And if I want to, and if we can come to terms with AskCADBMI, 39:49.320 --> 39:51.320 or PMRS, or whoever it is, 39:51.320 --> 39:54.320 we'll gladly do that if there's money coming in, of course. 39:54.320 --> 40:00.320 You know, the people who created that work deserve to deserve to have that. 40:00.320 --> 40:05.320 By the way, you know, this is the entire reason why copyrights are extended, 40:05.320 --> 40:07.320 and are extended primarily by artists. 40:07.320 --> 40:08.320 Members Sonny Bono did that. 40:08.320 --> 40:11.320 And Cliff Richard is bitching and moaning over here, 40:11.320 --> 40:13.320 because most of his copyrights are about to expire, 40:13.320 --> 40:16.320 which means basically, you know, he won't get any money 40:16.320 --> 40:18.320 for what he created. 40:18.320 --> 40:21.320 And you know, so that's, I shouldn't even brought that up. 40:21.320 --> 40:23.320 That's a whole different conversation about expiration 40:23.320 --> 40:24.320 of copyrights. 40:24.320 --> 40:27.320 But what we can do here. 40:27.320 --> 40:28.320 Here's what we can do. 40:28.320 --> 40:29.320 Podsafe Music has happened. 40:29.320 --> 40:30.320 There's no doubt about it. 40:30.320 --> 40:32.320 I get emails all the time from people who say, 40:32.320 --> 40:35.320 Dude, I heard, I heard Brother Love on this other podcast, 40:35.320 --> 40:37.320 and I recognized it just like it was a, 40:37.320 --> 40:39.320 you know, a regular radio station 40:39.320 --> 40:41.320 that I'd heard it somewhere else in a, 40:41.320 --> 40:42.320 and it felt like I hit to me, 40:42.320 --> 40:44.320 and I was loving it and singing along, 40:44.320 --> 40:45.320 because it's working. 40:45.320 --> 40:48.320 You know, we are promoting these artists. 40:48.320 --> 40:50.320 It's really, really working. 40:51.320 --> 40:56.320 So I think that I would like to investigate the Podsafe Music network, 40:56.320 --> 40:58.320 being a clearinghouse, 40:58.320 --> 41:02.320 not for the actual product again, 41:02.320 --> 41:04.320 not for the, for the track that's being sold. 41:04.320 --> 41:05.320 If that's played on your podcast, 41:05.320 --> 41:07.320 I feel that that should be, you know, 41:07.320 --> 41:08.320 that's a wash, you know, 41:08.320 --> 41:10.320 it's a promotion for the product, 41:10.320 --> 41:13.320 but we are using the works by these talented artists, 41:13.320 --> 41:15.320 mostly talented artists. 41:15.320 --> 41:17.320 And if you're monetizing, 41:17.320 --> 41:18.320 if you're making money, 41:18.320 --> 41:19.320 then you should, 41:19.320 --> 41:21.320 these people should be compensated. 41:21.320 --> 41:23.320 So I think there's a way to do that 41:23.320 --> 41:26.320 and have the Podsafe Music network 41:26.320 --> 41:28.320 be a clearinghouse for that. 41:28.320 --> 41:31.320 And it will be so cool because it's already happening now 41:31.320 --> 41:33.320 where radio stations want to play 41:33.320 --> 41:35.320 some of this Podsafe Music. 41:35.320 --> 41:37.320 Well, it's not interesting. 41:37.320 --> 41:39.320 You have to cut a deal with the podcasters, 41:39.320 --> 41:42.320 music association or whatever the hell we're going to call it. 41:42.320 --> 41:44.320 Well, the Podsafe Music network 41:44.320 --> 41:46.320 writes clearances. 41:46.320 --> 41:48.320 Yeah, we'll use all the big words those guys use. 41:48.320 --> 41:50.320 So you have to clear it through us. 41:50.320 --> 41:51.320 And guess what? 41:51.320 --> 41:52.320 If you played on terrestrial radio, 41:52.320 --> 41:53.320 you have a different rate, 41:53.320 --> 41:56.320 and it's going to be much higher than on podcasts. 41:56.320 --> 41:58.320 If you want to use it with your film, 41:58.320 --> 42:00.320 then you also have to come to the clearinghouse. 42:00.320 --> 42:04.320 I would love nothing more than to represent all these artists. 42:04.320 --> 42:06.320 And again, not just the author and composer, 42:06.320 --> 42:08.320 but the producer and the performers of the work, 42:08.320 --> 42:11.320 so that when someone uses their work, 42:11.320 --> 42:13.320 whether they re-record it, 42:13.320 --> 42:15.320 it doesn't make any difference. 42:15.320 --> 42:19.320 If it's being used in a commercial venture through a performance, 42:19.320 --> 42:22.320 then I think that should be compensated, 42:22.320 --> 42:24.320 and I think we can do it. 42:24.320 --> 42:28.320 In fact, I got an audio feedback from Adrian Pegg here in the UK, 42:28.320 --> 42:30.320 who said something very similar. 42:30.320 --> 42:31.320 Listen to what he has to say. 42:31.320 --> 42:32.320 I don't know if this is Adrian Pegg. 42:32.320 --> 42:36.320 I was one of the four organises of the recent Podcastcon UK conference. 42:36.320 --> 42:38.320 I was interested to hear about your attempts 42:38.320 --> 42:41.320 to solve the music licensing issues in Podcasting. 42:41.320 --> 42:42.320 I mean, I actually think that Podcast 42:42.320 --> 42:45.320 have found a real niche anyway with indie music 42:45.320 --> 42:47.320 and unlicensed side music, 42:47.320 --> 42:50.320 because that is something that the major broadcast 42:50.320 --> 42:53.320 this content wouldn't want to do anyway. 42:53.320 --> 42:57.320 And it really gives Podcast something different. 42:57.320 --> 43:00.320 But I can see why it would be nice to have 43:00.320 --> 43:04.320 a blanket license of some sort to play a license music 43:04.320 --> 43:05.320 or sign music. 43:05.320 --> 43:09.320 And I think the approach of going to the approach of avoiding 43:10.320 --> 43:14.320 the mechanical rights side of things initially is a good one. 43:14.320 --> 43:17.320 But I do think you could think about taking it 43:17.320 --> 43:19.320 at one step further. 43:19.320 --> 43:23.320 Imagine that you could get the odd small record label signed up 43:23.320 --> 43:25.320 with mechanical rights, 43:25.320 --> 43:29.320 and you were actually acting as a collecting agency yourself. 43:29.320 --> 43:32.320 Pod shows acting as a collecting agency. 43:32.320 --> 43:36.320 You could actually bypass the whole process. 43:36.320 --> 43:38.320 I know it would be a lot to set up, 43:38.320 --> 43:41.320 and it would have to really depend 43:41.320 --> 43:44.320 I suppose on there being significant revenues 43:44.320 --> 43:45.320 to share out. 43:45.320 --> 43:47.320 So that might be a little way off. 43:47.320 --> 43:48.320 But in the end, you know, 43:48.320 --> 43:51.320 what we need really is a global system in any case. 43:51.320 --> 43:54.320 I mean, one of the problems that I have 43:54.320 --> 43:56.320 with things you've been talking about 43:56.320 --> 44:01.320 is that they are effectively confined to the US. 44:01.320 --> 44:04.320 Pod is, for example, in this country, 44:04.320 --> 44:07.320 it would be the PRS, the Performing Rights Society, 44:07.320 --> 44:10.320 that you would need to be discussing with. 44:10.320 --> 44:13.320 And in fact, as I understand it, 44:13.320 --> 44:16.320 these things are territorial based, 44:16.320 --> 44:19.320 not about where the show is hosted 44:19.320 --> 44:21.320 or effectively broadcast from. 44:21.320 --> 44:23.320 So in fact, you know, 44:23.320 --> 44:25.320 your discussions with ASCAP BMI 44:25.320 --> 44:27.320 wouldn't even apply to your own show 44:27.320 --> 44:30.320 because you obviously produce that show 44:30.320 --> 44:32.320 for the most part in the UK. 44:32.320 --> 44:35.320 Or even if you did a territorial blanket agreement 44:35.320 --> 44:38.320 with ASCAP BMI, 44:38.320 --> 44:40.320 you would actually be excluded from it. 44:40.320 --> 44:44.320 So what we need really is some kind of global system 44:44.320 --> 44:46.320 a global blanket license, 44:46.320 --> 44:48.320 so we don't have to worry about territories. 44:48.320 --> 44:51.320 And that's why I think it might be worth 44:51.320 --> 44:55.320 podger thinking about something slightly further reaching 44:55.320 --> 44:58.320 than a deal with ASCAP BMI. 44:58.320 --> 45:00.320 And if that going back to the artists themselves 45:00.320 --> 45:02.320 and doing a deal, setting up a separate 45:02.320 --> 45:04.320 collecting agency even. 45:04.320 --> 45:06.320 And the other thing I wanted to say 45:06.320 --> 45:09.320 was that as far as the million listen to March goes, 45:09.320 --> 45:12.320 I wanted to let you know that he's far too modest 45:12.320 --> 45:13.320 to tell you himself, 45:13.320 --> 45:16.320 but podcast pool at podcastpool.com 45:16.320 --> 45:18.320 who, as you know, is a lawyer in the UK, 45:18.320 --> 45:21.320 and also an organizer of podcast.com UK. 45:21.320 --> 45:24.320 Has been asked by the BBC on Radio 5 Live 45:24.320 --> 45:27.320 to do his pod lawyer podcast 45:27.320 --> 45:30.320 and put that out on National Radio in the UK, 45:30.320 --> 45:33.320 which is also available to international listeners 45:33.320 --> 45:36.320 through the BBC listen again player. 45:36.320 --> 45:40.320 So that is undoubtedly going to be a 45:40.320 --> 45:42.320 good move towards getting more listeners 45:42.320 --> 45:44.320 to podcasting. 45:44.320 --> 45:46.320 And Radio 5 is being very, very supportive 45:46.320 --> 45:48.320 of the whole medium at the moment. 45:48.320 --> 45:50.320 Anyway, thanks again, sorry I rambled 45:50.320 --> 45:51.320 and I love the show. 45:51.320 --> 45:52.320 Keep it up, thanks. 45:52.320 --> 45:53.320 Thank you very much, Adrian. 45:53.320 --> 45:54.320 Really appreciate it. 45:54.320 --> 45:55.320 And of course, congrats to podcast, 45:55.320 --> 45:57.320 Paul, he did tell me that. 45:57.320 --> 45:59.320 I thought I had mentioned it on the show. 45:59.320 --> 46:01.320 Of course the BBC is happy with that. 46:01.320 --> 46:03.320 He's doing it for free. 46:03.320 --> 46:04.320 That's great exposure. 46:04.320 --> 46:06.320 Great exposure for him and for podcasting. 46:06.320 --> 46:07.320 Love that. 46:07.320 --> 46:08.320 So to wrap this up, 46:08.320 --> 46:12.320 here's what I'm going to propose internally at pod show 46:12.320 --> 46:14.320 because I think this is a great opportunity. 46:14.320 --> 46:16.320 I would like the pod safe net 46:16.320 --> 46:17.320 with music network to invest 46:17.320 --> 46:19.320 and to become that clearing agency. 46:19.320 --> 46:22.320 And here's the first steps we could take. 46:23.320 --> 46:26.320 If you're a member of the network, 46:26.320 --> 46:31.320 then I think that the benefit in your podcaster, 46:31.320 --> 46:33.320 the first step we could take is, 46:33.320 --> 46:38.320 okay, we will make sure that, 46:38.320 --> 46:41.320 let me think about this. 46:41.320 --> 46:44.320 We will make sure that the collections are done 46:44.320 --> 46:46.320 for podcasts who are monetizing 46:46.320 --> 46:48.320 and using pod safe music. 46:48.320 --> 46:50.320 And it will be a fraction. 46:50.320 --> 46:51.320 It'll be small. 46:51.320 --> 46:53.320 It'll be freaking pennies, okay? 46:53.320 --> 46:55.320 But millions of pennies 46:55.320 --> 46:57.320 starts to become interesting for anybody 46:57.320 --> 46:59.320 and I think eventually we're going to go 46:59.320 --> 47:00.320 in that direction. 47:00.320 --> 47:02.320 There's no doubt about it. 47:02.320 --> 47:05.320 If a radio station or television station 47:05.320 --> 47:08.320 or some mainstream media wants to use the music, 47:08.320 --> 47:09.320 sure, no problem. 47:09.320 --> 47:10.320 But you have a very different rate. 47:10.320 --> 47:11.320 We're talking dollars there. 47:11.320 --> 47:12.320 Not pennies. 47:12.320 --> 47:14.320 For, you know, ten cents, 47:14.320 --> 47:16.320 ten cents or dimes or whatever. 47:16.320 --> 47:17.320 We'll figure that out. 47:17.320 --> 47:20.320 And it will take significant resources. 47:20.320 --> 47:22.320 It will take work, 47:22.320 --> 47:25.320 but I really would love to invest in that 47:25.320 --> 47:28.320 because I think that's how we fulfill 47:28.320 --> 47:30.320 on George Carlin's dream. 47:30.320 --> 47:33.320 And that's how we turn the tables. 47:33.320 --> 47:35.320 And I'm pretty sure, 47:35.320 --> 47:37.320 if we can succeed at that. 47:37.320 --> 47:40.320 And we really are bringing the listeners in 47:40.320 --> 47:42.320 because we've got exciting new music 47:42.320 --> 47:45.320 and tons of it and lots of diversity 47:46.320 --> 47:48.320 that, you know, the mainstream media 47:48.320 --> 47:49.320 will want to play this. 47:49.320 --> 47:50.320 And they'll want to be a part of it. 47:50.320 --> 47:51.320 I mean, it's there. 47:51.320 --> 47:53.320 It's the fuel that makes radio stations. 47:53.320 --> 47:55.320 Music radio stations run is the music. 47:55.320 --> 47:57.320 They're all pulling from the same 47:57.320 --> 47:58.320 one and a half million songs 47:58.320 --> 48:00.320 that you can download from iTunes 48:00.320 --> 48:02.320 or from Rhapsody or, you know, 48:02.320 --> 48:04.320 whatever other system you, 48:04.320 --> 48:06.320 you may be subscribed to where you buy your music. 48:06.320 --> 48:07.320 Everyone's, and they all say it. 48:07.320 --> 48:09.320 It's a million and a half songs. 48:09.320 --> 48:11.320 That's all that is no more songs than that. 48:11.320 --> 48:12.320 Well, we know that's not true. 48:12.320 --> 48:14.320 So I'm going to work on this. 48:14.320 --> 48:16.320 I'm going to keep you updated. 48:16.320 --> 48:20.320 But I think that as podcasting starts to move, 48:20.320 --> 48:22.320 not all, not all by the way, 48:22.320 --> 48:24.320 if you, if you have a non-commercial podcast, 48:24.320 --> 48:27.320 you should be able to use the music 48:27.320 --> 48:30.320 under almost like a creative commons license 48:30.320 --> 48:32.320 where you don't have to pay anything 48:32.320 --> 48:36.320 for the privilege of using it as long as you report it. 48:36.320 --> 48:38.320 But if you do and people will 48:38.320 --> 48:40.320 and we're helping with them with that 48:40.320 --> 48:41.320 with monetization, 48:41.320 --> 48:43.320 then we're going to pay the artists 48:43.320 --> 48:44.320 who are part of this. 48:44.320 --> 48:45.320 Okay, I'm sorry for the rant. 48:45.320 --> 48:47.320 I didn't get to all the songs I wanted to play. 48:47.320 --> 48:49.320 I didn't get to have the promos I wanted to, 48:49.320 --> 48:50.320 to put before you. 48:50.320 --> 48:51.320 We'll do that tomorrow. 48:51.320 --> 48:52.320 Thanks for listening. 48:52.320 --> 48:55.320 Bye-bye.